engine pinging (not the boat)

[Rude]

whenever the engine in my dodge is under a load, such as pulling the boat, it pings VERY badly. i bought the truck new in '98 and used to run 91 octane fuel for quite some time. once the fuel prices started to kreep up i stopped putting the "good stuff" in and switched back to 87 octane. the quick fix is to run 91 octane fuel but is there something wrong with the valves that can be fixed or do i just need to run either an octane boost or high grade fuel forever since i broke the motor in on the 91?

[AnchorNPlay]

you just need to run the higher octane. You probably have a high compression engine which will require high octane under any type of load. For daily driving you can probably get away with 87 or 89.

[Trouble Maker]

It's not the valves... It's the compression, combined with the timing, combined with the Octane of fuel that causes it. Try the midgrade fuel and see what happens. Or, you can retard the engine timing a couple of degrees, but I imagine that's all electronically controlled, so you probably can't even adjust that. Actually, the engine should have a knock sensor and the computer should be adjusting the timing accordingly to compensate. Maybe your knock sensor has gone bad.....

[panic button]

My knocks all the time... Never mind I got a diesel.:D

[Rude]

My knocks all the time... Never mind I got a diesel.:D

blah blah blah :D

mine sounded like a diesel, too bad it doesn't pull like one :dunno:

maybe i should jump on ebay and find a whipple setup :thumb:

[just another payment]

James is it a 5.9 liter? and how many miles ?

[Rude]

5.9 gasser with about 130k

[Rude]

It's not the valves... It's the compression, combined with the timing, combined with the Octane of fuel that causes it. Try the midgrade fuel and see what happens. Or, you can retard the engine timing a couple of degrees, but I imagine that's all electronically controlled, so you probably can't even adjust that. Actually, the engine should have a knock sensor and the computer should be adjusting the timing accordingly to compensate. Maybe your knock sensor has gone bad.....

so if you put it simply so an idiot can understand it.......i need to do what to fix it? i filled up today with the 87 but i had a can of octane boost in the truck so i put that in as well. we'll see what happens with that. how can i find out if the knock sensor is bad? what about one of those hyperchips computer chips? would that fix it, or would that compound the problem?

[sandman0_0]

so if you put it simply so an idiot can understand it.......i need to do what to fix it? i filled up today with the 87 but i had a can of octane boost in the truck so i put that in as well. we'll see what happens with that. how can i find out if the knock sensor is bad? what about one of those hyperchips computer chips? would that fix it, or would that compound the problem?

The Octane boost will probably make no difference. Most of them raise the level 0.0 something. Try running midgrade and try running some type of cleaner through it just incase you are getting a carbon knock. Sometimes cheap gas will build up carbon deposits and create a knock. You might get away with a minor timming adjustment. (Retard it a little.) then run a better quality gas. You may still be able to run regular just not dont use the cheap stuff and run something with a detergant in it. Like Chevron or something. Does that engine have a carb or a throttle body?

[sandman0_0]

My knocks all the time... Never mind I got a diesel.:D
Yea those diesels sound like the piston are swapping cylinders in there.:rollinglaugh:

[PUMP 'HER']

The Expy gets a real bad ping in it from time to time too. I clean the Mass air flow sensor and it clears it up pretty good.

[Rude]

you mean i'm actually supposed to clean something under the hood from time to time???? :)

[Rude]

have any of you tried those shiny FIPK kits. i think K&N makes one along with a couple of others. is one brand better than another? this motor is completely stock and i'm considering doing a little bit to it to perk it up. K&N's site says 11.83 HP gain over stock.

[Liquid Courage]

I would have to say the knock sensor, if I remember correctly the that engine is designed for 87 octane. I don't think they are that expensive, but I would look at changing it. With decent brand fuel that engine should not be able to ping. Also pinging is very bad on the motor, pretty much like throwing a hand full of marbles in the cyclinder. A little every once and a while and you will be ok, but pulling a long grade lunging the motor all the way up while pinging is not good.

[kevnmcd]

James - Like most of the others have said, pinging no good! Your motors timing is probably controlled electronically so there isn't any adjusting that you can do to the timing. I really don't think a cold air intake will help your problem....a few more hp but that is it. It is probably your knock sensor which is located down on the middle of the block on one of the sides. You could go to your local auto parts store and pick up a new one and replace it pretty easy and see if that fixes your problem. If not, you will probably have to take it to a shop so they can put a scope on it. Good luck!

[just another payment]

JAMES IT MAY NOT BE A SIMPLE AS MANY THINK: we have seen a lot of cylinder heads crack causing these syptoms as well as the gasket on the bottom intake leaking causing this . attached is a copy of a technical service bulletin from chrysler for the diagnosis and repair of the gasket leak.

NO: 09-05-00
SUBJECT: Spark Knock And Engine Oil Consumption Due To Intake Manifold Pan Gasket Oil Leak
DATE: Feb. 25, 2000
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 09-06-99, DATED SEP. 10, 1999, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. THIS IS A COMPLETE REVISION AND NO ASTERISKS HAVE BEEN USED TO HIGHLIGHT REVISIONS.

OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves the replacement of the engine intake manifold plenum pan gasket.

NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH A 3.9L, 5.2L. OR 5.9L GASOLINE ENGINE.

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
An engine intake manifold plenum pan gasket oil leak may occur on some V-6 and V-8 style engines. The oil leak is internal to the engine so no external oil leakage will be present. Two symptoms of this oil leak condition may be present. The vehicle operator may experience an engine spark knock during acceleration and/or an increase in the amount of engine oil consumed by the engine.

DIAGNOSIS:
Make sure Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) 18-48-98 has been performed.

NOTE: IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE COIL AND SPARK PLUG WIRES ARE ROUTED EXACTLY AS SPECIFIED IN TSB 18-48-98 TO ACHIEVE THE MOST BENEFIT.

Inspect the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve. Shake the PCV valve to verify that the pintle inside of the PCV valve is free. Replace the PVC if the pintle is not free.

If the intake manifold plenum pan gasket is leaking, an additional vacuum source will be created inside of the engine at the location of the pan gasket leakage. Engine combustion blow-by gases, oil vapor, and air from the crankcase filter/breather may be drawn past the leaking pan gasket and into the intake manifold. In most cases when this condition occurs, an engine at idle will create the highest vacuum and lowest amount of engine blow-by.

Allow the engine to reach normal operating temperature.
Stop the engine.
Disconnect the breather hose from the air cleaner.
Attach a vacuum / pressure gauge to the end of the breather hose (Figure 1).
Disconnect the PCV valve hose from the intake manifold.
Seal off the intake manifold PCV valve hose port opening.
Seal off the open end of the PCV valve hose (Figure 2).
NOTE: DURING THIS DIAGNOSIS, IT WOULD BE NORMAL FOR THE ENGINE TO DEVELOP PRESSURE WITHIN THE ENGINE CRANKCASE. THIS IS DUE TO THE NORMAL PROCESS OF EXHAUST BLOW-BY GASES LEAKING PAST THE ENGINE PISTON RINGS AND ACCUMULATING IN THE ENGINE CRANKCASE. DO NOT ALLOW MORE THAN 3 PSI (20.7 kPa) OF PRESSURE TO BUILD WITHIN THE ENGINE WHEN PERFORMING THE FOLLOWING DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURE.

Start the warmed engine and observe the vacuum gauge.
Allow the engine to idle for approximately 30 seconds. Do not allow more than 3 psi (20.7 kPa) of pressure to develop in the engine crankcase.
If the attached vacuum / pressure gauge does not indicate that a vacuum is present in the engine crankcase, then the intake manifold plenum pan gasket is good and no further internal engine vacuum leak diagnosis is required.
If an internal vacuum leak is present then perform the Repair Procedure.
PARTS REQUIRED:
For the 5.2L / 5.9L:

Qty Part No. Description
1 04897383AC Package, Intake Manifold Flange Gasket and Bolts
1 05017208AA Gasket, Intake Manifold Plenum Pan
15 06034583 Bolt, Intake Manifold Plenum Pan
1 53030541 Gasket, Throttle Body
2(AR) 04318001 Conditioner, Combustion Chamber


For the 3.9L:

Qty Part No. Description
1 04897382AC Package, Intake Manifold Flange Gasket and Bolts
1 05017207AA Gasket, Intake Manifold Plenum Pan
14 06034583 Bolt, Intake Manifold Plenum Pan
1 53030541 Gasket, Throttle Body
2(AR) 04318001 Conditioner, Combustion Chamber


REPAIR PROCEDURE:
Refer to the appropriate year Service Manual, Section 9: ENGINE for removal and installation instructions.
NOTE: CLEAN ALL OIL RESIDUE FROM THE INTERIOR SURFACES OF THE PLENUM PAN AND THE INTAKE MANIFOLD PLENUM CHAMBER.

NOTE: THE PROPER BOLT TORQUE AND TIGHTENING SEQUENCE IS CRITICAL AND MUST BE FOLLOWED WHEN TIGHTENING BOTH THE PLENUM PAN BOLTS AND THE INTAKE MANIFOLD FLANGE BOLTS.

3.9L Bolt Tightening Sequence and Torque Procedure:

3.9L Plenum Pan Bolt Torque Procedure (Figure 3)

STEP WHICH BOLT TORQUE
1 All Bolts 5.4 Nm (48 in. lbs.)
2 All Bolts 9.5 Nm (84 in. lbs.)

3 Check All Bolts 9.5 Nm (84 in. lbs.)


3.9L Intake Manifold Flange Bolt Torque Procedure (Figure 4)

STEP WHICH BOLT TORQUE
1 1 and 2 1.4 Nm (12 in. lbs.)
2 1 and 2 2.7 Nm (24 in. lbs.)
3 1 and 2 4.1 Nm (36 in. lbs.)
4 1 and 2 5.4 Nm (48 in. lbs.)
5 1 and 2 6.7 Nm (60 in. lbs.)
6 1 and 2 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
7 3 through 12 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
8 Check All Bolts 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
9 All Bolts 16.3 Nm (12 ft. lbs.)
10 Check All Bolts 16.3 Nm (12 ft. lbs.)


5.2L / 5.9L Bolt Tightening Sequence and Torque Procedure:

5.2L / 5.9L Plenum Pan Bolt Torque Procedure (Figure 5)

STEP WHICH BOLT TORQUE
1 All Bolts 5.4 Nm (48 in. lbs.)
2 All Bolts 9.5 Nm (84 in. lbs.)
3 Check All Bolts 9.5 Nm (84 in. lbs.)


5.2L / 5.9L Intake Manifold Flange Bolt Torque Procedure (Figure 6)

STEP WHICH BOLT TORQUE
1 1 through 4 1.4 Nm (12 in. lbs.)
2 1 through 4 2.7 Nm (24 in. lbs.)
3 1 through 4 4.1 Nm (36 in. lbs.)
4 1 through 4 5.4 Nm (48 in. lbs.)
5 1 through 4 6.7 Nm (60 in. lbs.)
6 1 through 4 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
7 5 through 12 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
8 Check All Bolts 8.1 Nm (72 in. lbs.)
9 All Bolts 16.3 Nm (12 ft. lbs.)
10 Check All Bolts 16.3 Nm (12 ft. lbs.)



With the engine reassembled, inspect the coil and spark plug wires for proper routing. Refer to TSB 18-48-98 for additional assistance.
Start the engine and allow it to warm to normal engine operating temperature.
Decarbon the combustion chamber using Mopar Combustion Chamber Conditioner (p/n 04318001) per the instructions.
NOTE: ALLOW THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER CLEANER TO SOAK INSIDE OF THE ENGINE FOR 2 TO 2.5 HOURS.

NOTE: A SECOND APPLICATION OF THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER CONDITIONER MAY BE REQUIRED IF THERE WAS A LARGE QUANTITY OF OIL LEAKAGE PAST THE INTAKE PLENUM PAN GASKET.

Verify proper engine oil level

[just another payment]

here is another bulletin that may help

NO: 18-48-98
SUBJECT: Ignition System Cross Fire/Secondary Ignition Wire Induction
DATE: Dec. 30, 1998
NOTE: THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 3.9L, 5.2L, OR 5.9L ENGINE.
AB MODELS WILL BE ADDED LATER (NEW PARTS REQUIRED).


SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Some vehicles may exhibit one or more of the following:

Spark knock complaints when the vehicle is under load.
Various single cylinder misfire (1, 3, 7), especially 5 and/or 8.
Surge in 4th gear with the Electronically Modulated Converter Clutch (EMCC) engaged (around 45 mph).
Perceived torque converter EMCC engagement/disengagement around 45 mph.
DIAGNOSIS:
Using the Mopar Diagnostic System (MDS/MDS 2) or the Diagnostic Scan Tool (DRB III®) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures Manual, verify all engine/transmission systems are functioning as designed. If other than mentioned Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) are present, record them on the repair order and repair as necessary before proceeding further with this bulletin. If no DTC’s are present or if the above symptoms/conditions have been described by the customer, perform the Repair Procedure.

NOTE: THIS REROUTING PROCEDURE SHOULD BE PERFORMED BEFORE ANY OTHER MISFIRE, SURGE, OR SPARK KNOCK REPAIRS ARE ATTEMPTED.

PARTS REQUIRED:
Qty Part No. Description
3 56028186 Clip, Single Wire
2 06503441 Clip, Wire To Hose (5.2L & 5.9L)
1 04364375 Convolute, 10 ft Roll


REPAIR PROCEDURE:
This bulletin involves rerouting the coil wire for all engines listed and rerouting the 4, 5, 7, and 8 plug wires for the 5.2/5.9L applications to minimize induction effects.

NOTE: IF WIRES MUST CROSS DURING THE REROUTE PROCEDURE, THEY MUST CROSS AT A 90O ANGLE.

5.2L AND 5.9L ENGINE PROCEDURES
Coil Wire Routing (Figure 1 and Figure 2)
Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap coil wire tower terminal.
Remove the coil wire from the rear five-wire clip, the center three-wire clip, and the front one-wire clip located along the lower side of the right valve cover.
Install three (3) one-wire clips p/n 56028186 along the top and front of the valve cover. Use the studs of the valve cover retaining bolts (Figure 1).
NOTE: SOME APPLICATIONS MAY ONLY HAVE STUD LOCATIONS FOR 3 OF THE ONE-WIRE CLIPS.

Route the coil wire starting from the ignition coil toward the distributor. Any excess wire should end up at the distributor end.
Install the coil wire into the one-wire clips. This procedure may be easier to perform while the coil wire is loose from the valve cover (before the one-wire clips are attached to the valve cover studs).
Cut the ignition wire convolute p/n 04364375 into three lengths 203 mm (8 in.), 101.5 mm (4 in.), and 82.5 mm (3.25 in.).
Slit and install the three sections of convolute onto the coil wire between the one-wire clips. Install the 82.5 mm (3.25 in.) section at the front of the right valve cover. Install the 203 mm (8 in.) and the 101.5 mm (4 in.) sections along the top side of the right valve cover. This procedure may be easier to perform while the coil wire is loose from the valve cover (before the clips are attached to the valve cover studs).
Route the distributor end of the coil wire down and behind the intake manifold, in front of the oil pressure switch (Figure 2).
NOTE: THE COIL WIRE MUST BE A MINIMUM OF ONE (1) INCH AWAY FROM ANY OTHER IGNITION WIRES. THIS MAY REQUIRE THAT THE COIL WIRE BE ROUTED UNDER VACUUM AND/OR WIRE HARNESSES IN THE RIGHT REAR CORNER OF THE INTAKE MANIFOLD.

Route the distributor end of the coil wire up the side of the distributor cap and onto the coil wire tower terminal.
Position the original piece of coil wire convolute so it protects the wire against chafing with components at the rear of the engine.
No. 8 Cylinder Plug Wire Routing (Figure 3)
Remove the No. 8 cylinder plug wire from the distributor cap tower terminal.
Remove the No. 8 cylinder plug wire from the five-wire clip located at the lower rear of the valve cover.
Route the No. 8 cylinder plug wire over the rear quarter of the right valve cover (Figure 3).
Position the original piece convolute from the No. 8 cylinder plug wire to prevent chafing at the right valve cover and with other engine components.
Secure the No. 8 cylinder plug wire and its convolute in place with the hose to wire clip p/n 06503441. The small end of the clip is positioned over the convolute. The large end of the clip is fastened to a heater hose (A/C line on ZJ models).
NOTE: MAKE SURE THE NO. 8 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE IS SECURE AND AWAY FROM THE COIL WIRE AND THE NO. 4 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE. MAKE CERTAIN IT WILL NOT FALL DOWN AND CONTACT THE CYLINDER HEAD AND/OR EXHAUST COMPONENTS.

Install the No. 8 cylinder plug wire to its distributor cap terminal.
No. 4 Cylinder Plug Wire Routing (Figure 4 and Figure 5)
Remove the No. 4 cylinder plug wire from the distributor cap terminal.
At the three-wire clip (located at the center of the lower side of the right valve cover), keep the two wires from crossing and chafing each other. Position the No. 2 cylinder plug wire in the top wire slot and the No. 4 cylinder plug wire in the bottom wire slot. Leave the middle wire slot empty (Figure 5).
At the five-wire clip (located at the right rear lower side of the valve cover), keep the plug wires from crossing and chafing each other. Position the No. 4 cylinder plug wire in a slot that will obtain the maximum amount of distance allowable from the No. 8 cylinder plug wire (Figure 6). Remove any slack in the No. 4 cylinder plug wire between the three-wire and the five-wire clips.
NOTE: EARLIER MODEL FIVE-WIRE CLIPS LOOK SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT THE SAME WIRING LAYOUT APPLIES.

Route the No. 4 cylinder plug wire behind the transmission dipstick tube and heater hoses. On ZJ models this may not be possible due to the location of the bulkhead.
NOTE: MAKE SURE THAT THE NO. 4 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE IS, AT LEAST ONE INCH, AWAY FROM THE NO. 8 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE.

Install the No. 4 cylinder plug wire to its distributor cap terminal (Figure 7).
No. 7 Cylinder Plug Wire Routing (Figure 8 and Figure 9)
Verify that the No. 7 cylinder plug wire crosses over the distributor cap and leaves the distributor cap between the No. 3 and the No. 6 tower terminals (Figure 8). This is the original wire routing for 1998 and prior model years.
For 1999 M.Y. vehicles the No. 7 cylinder plug wire was shortened. Reroute the No. 7 cylinder plug wire so that it crosses the distributor cap and leaves the distributor cap between the No. 6 and the No. 5 tower terminals (Figure 9).
NOTE: MAKE SURE THE NO. 7 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE IS, AT LEAST ONE INCH, AWAY FROM THE NO. 5 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE.

No. 5 Cylinder Plug Wire Routing (Figure 10)
Remove the No. 5 cylinder plug wire from its distributor cap terminal.
Remove the No. 5 cylinder plug wire from the five-wire clip located at the lower rear of the left valve cover.
Route the No. 5 cylinder plug wire over the left valve cover and in front of the breather tube elbow.
Position the original convolute from the No. 5 cylinder plug wire to prevent chafing against the valve cover and any engine components. Secure the small end of the hose to wire clip p/n 06503441 over the convolute. Secure the large end of the hose to wire clip to the breather hose.
NOTE: MAKE SURE THE NO. 5 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE IS SECURE AND AWAY FROM THE NO. 7 CYLINDER PLUG WIRE. MAKE CERTAIN IT WILL NOT FALL DOWN AND CONTACT THE CYLINDER HEAD AND/OR EXHAUST COMPONENTS.

3.9L ENGINE
Coil Wire Routing (Figure 11 and Figure 12)
Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap tower terminal.
Remove the coil wire from the right rear five-wire clip, the center three wire clip and the front one-wire clip on the right valve cover.
Install three (3) one-wire clips p/n 56028186 along the top and front of the valve cover studs (Figure 11).
Route the coil wire starting from the ignition coil toward the distributor. Any excess wire should end up at the distributor end.
Install the coil wire into the one-wire clips. This procedure may be easier to perform while the coil wireis loose from the valve cover (before the one-wire clips are attached to the valve cover studs).
Cut the ignition wire convolute p/n 04364375 into three lengths. Two (2) at 101.5 mm (4 in.), and one (1) at 82.5 mm (3.25 in.).
Slit and install the three sections of convolute onto the coil wire between the one-wire clips. Install the 82.5 mm (3.25 in.) section at the front of the right valve cover. Install the two 101.5 mm (4 in.) sections along the top side of the right valve cover. This procedure may be easier to perform while the coil wire is loose from the valve cover (before the clips are attached to the valve cover studs).
Route the distributor end of the coil wire down and behind the intake manifold, in front of the oil pressure switch (Figure 12).
NOTE: THE COIL WIRE MUST BE A MINIMUM OF ONE (1) INCH AWAY FROM ANY OTHER IGNITION WIRES. THIS MAY REQUIRE THAT THE COIL WIRE BE ROUTED UNDER VACUUM AND/OR WIRE HARNESSES IN THE RIGHT REAR CORNER OF THE INTAKE MANIFOLD.

Route the distributor end of the coil wire up the side of the distributor cap and onto the coil wire tower terminal.
Position the original piece of coil wire convolute so it protects the wire against chafing with components at the rear of the engine.

[PUMP 'HER']

JAMES IT MAY NOT BE A SIMPLE AS MANY THINK:...

here is another bulletin that may help
...

I'd rather sell the truck than read all that.

[kevnmcd]

Of course, this could have all been avoided had you bought a Chevy in the first place! :Laugh_at:;)

[hkunz]

Short version for the real world - run premium. We've run premium in the Grand Cherokee when towing for years due to the same knock, maybe even the same problem. Around town we run regular, but when we hit the road with the boat in tow, it gets the "good stuff". I'd also check the knock sensor since that's fairly easy....

[jkpruitt]

Change the knock sensor. The computer will put in as much timing as the engine will take until it starts to detonate (knock), and the knock sensor will tell the computer to start pulling the timing back accordingly.

Knock-Konck...................... who's there?

[just another payment]

Enough with the knock sensor, this vehicle is not equipped with a knock sensor.
James the first thing to do is check to see if your internal engine vac is correct, to do this with the engine running remove the oil fill cap and put a piece of paper over the opening and see if it has enough vac to hold the paper in place, if so then you need to remove the intake manifold and replace the lower gasket on the bottom of the manifold and it would be a good idea to replace the pcv valve at the same time, if all is ok then check the plug wires and the routing of the plug wires and the plugs,if all ok the next thing to do is perform a top end decarb and throttle body service, if those things do not help the next thing to do is run a cylinder leak down test.and check for a possible cracked cylinder head. These are all common things for this motor that I deal with every day. If you have any questions feel free to call me or pm and I will help as best as I can.

[PUMP 'HER']

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

[just another payment]

How did you know?????????????????

[kevnmcd]

Enough with the knock sensor, this vehicle is not equipped with a knock sensor.
James the first thing to do is check to see if your internal engine vac is correct, to do this with the engine running remove the oil fill cap and put a piece of paper over the opening and see if it has enough vac to hold the paper in place, if so then you need to remove the intake manifold and replace the lower gasket on the bottom of the manifold and it would be a good idea to replace the pcv valve at the same time, if all is ok then check the plug wires and the routing of the plug wires and the plugs,if all ok the next thing to do is perform a top end decarb and throttle body service, if those things do not help the next thing to do is run a cylinder leak down test.and check for a possible cracked cylinder head. These are all common things for this motor that I deal with every day. If you have any questions feel free to call me or pm and I will help as best as I can.

You do realize that this is James your telling this to....right? :smashfreak:

j/k James.....sounds like it might be time to take it to a professional?

[just another payment]

I have all the confidence in the world taht james can....... WHAT AM I THINKING????
James here is the info for you local dealer ask for Steve Ward (tell him you are a friend of mine)


http://integritychrysler.com/Department-Service.aspx

Just kidding James , you should be able to do the initial test but if it goes to internal engine concern and you want to go to the dealer , give Steve a call. or let me know and I can call him and let him know you are coming.

[hkunz]

Enough with the knock sensor, this vehicle is not equipped with a knock sensor.


See, that's the problem with some of the advice here - we'll freely give advice we know nothing about.... :insane: I didn't know if it had a knock sensor or not, just seemed like a good idea.

I'm now thinking I should do the paper test on mine - it has 170K miles on it.;)

[PUMP 'HER']

You do realize that this is James your telling this to....right? :smashfreak:

j/k James.....sounds like it might be time to take it to a professional?

:rollinglaugh:
Right! Kurt, James will be over this weekend. :D

[Red Horse]

In the best Cliff Clavin voice...


Ahh, maybe you should check the knock sensor. Yeah, that's what it is, your knock sensor is bad.


I had a Dodge and thought it had a knock sensor. I thought they all did. Vehicles are getting real complicated now a days. Do the new merc 496s have them?? What keeps them from knocking. I am looking for some understanding. I am kinda with Brandon. I would take it to the dealer with this printed thread and say, hey fix it!!

[PUMP 'HER']

I would take it to the dealer with this printed thread and say, hey fix it!!


And an open credit limit, those guys are expensive. Considering how over paid their service writers are I see why.

[hkunz]

And an open credit limit, those guys are expensive. Considering how over paid their service writers are I see why.

You mean those guys get paid? I thought it was like an unpaid internship for folks who couldn't actually "fix" the vehicles until they learned how to do all the dealership mechanical actions - overbill time, install the wrong part, leave oil out of the transmission, etc.....:lookaround:

[just another payment]

Easy there buddy,...................................... I dont know who hurt you but dont assume all service writers are the same. All I know is that a valet in vegas can make more than a service writer and not have to listen to the customers bitch because they abused their cars and it is not covered by warranty or another shop screwed it up and the dealership who fixed it is a thief. remember you get what you pay for. You can always get it done cheaper , but what is your time worth to get it done right by a technician trained on your particular make of automobile.

Dont get me started I deal with this everyday, and if was such an easy job everyone would be doing it. Most service advisors work an average of 60 hours a week and sometimes more and if you figure it out, what they make an hour , you would be suprised how low it actually is. the average service writer makes $48 k a year, and there is no overtime pay, it is a straight commission. Anyone ready to start writing service????????????

Sorry about the ranting and raving I am having a bad day.

[PUMP 'HER']

Easy there buddy,...................................... .


Awwww geeez, we've hurt the primadonna's feelings. Just playin' Bob. I know you work your ass off and every time I've called you on something you've had the answer for me. I used to not mind working on my own stuff and I can get pretty much any part I need at a fairly good discount, but I've gotten to the point where I'd rather take it to the dealer. Yeah it may cost a little more but it is usually done right and comes with a warranty. There all better, now stop surfing the Internet and get back to work.:D

[just another payment]

It's all good

[kevnmcd]

:rollinglaugh:
Right! Kurt, James will be over this weekend. :D

You know he will be calling him! :rollinglaugh:

[kevnmcd]

Easy there buddy,...................................... I dont know who hurt you but dont assume all service writers are the same. All I know is that a valet in vegas can make more than a service writer and not have to listen to the customers bitch because they abused their cars and it is not covered by warranty or another shop screwed it up and the dealership who fixed it is a thief. remember you get what you pay for. You can always get it done cheaper , but what is your time worth to get it done right by a technician trained on your particular make of automobile.

Dont get me started I deal with this everyday, and if was such an easy job everyone would be doing it. Most service advisors work an average of 60 hours a week and sometimes more and if you figure it out, what they make an hour , you would be suprised how low it actually is. the average service writer makes $48 k a year, and there is no overtime pay, it is a straight commission. Anyone ready to start writing service????????????

Sorry about the ranting and raving I am having a bad day.


Don't get your panties in a bunch! We are not bagging on you, we are just venting in general that vehicles are so sophisticated these days that he dealers have us by the balls because we don't have the equipment or know how to fix anything any more!

If your were having such a bad day you should have come over to my house and had cocktails with Kurt and I! :drinkers:

[just another payment]

You mean those guys get paid? I thought it was like an unpaid internship for folks who couldn't actually "fix" the vehicles until they learned how to do all the dealership mechanical actions - overbill time, install the wrong part, leave oil out of the transmission, etc.....:lookaround:

I guess I took this the wrong way, I should have joined you guys for a cocktail:drinkers:

[PUMP 'HER']

Love ya Bob.:inlove_anim::D
Gimme a call in the morning.

[Rude]

i can't believe you guys! i've spent many hours watching kurt work on my boat (and trailer)!! i've learned alot :D:thumb: man, no credit :smashfreak:

in all seriousness, i'm going to tackle this one. as soon as i try the paper trick i'll post on here what it does. i've already got plans to start pulling the mustang apart (although that will now have to wait until i get the dodge fixed now :smashfreak:). that will done by me as well....so take THAT you non-believers :laugh:

[kevnmcd]

....that will done by me as well....so take THAT you non-believers :laugh:

I believe in you....you are a great tool biatch! :rollinglaugh:

Seriously, good luck with the fix. You have Bob to guide you through every step, so you should be quite the mechanic after this! :thumbs_up:

[Rude]

well i just tried the paper trick and sure enough, it stuck to the valve cover. so i guess i better break the tools out and start taking shite apart.......DAMN! now what was kurt's number again...........

since the paper stuck, does that mean your pretty certain it's just the gasket? once i get that replaced i should have no more pinging???

oh yeah, i can't forget the PCV valve too..........

[Rude]

JAP can you call me at 702-664-5018 please. i have the gaskets and the pcv valve and was going to jump on it tonight since the truck didn't pass the paper test. i was just told by an old timer that i'm a lunatic for tearing into the motor because it's running too good. he thinks i should run a couple of cans of injector cleaner and that will clear it up. the truck runs good under normal driving but pings like hell under a heavy pull. he believes it's an injector not operating correctly and the motor is not getting enough fuel. the intake doesn't seem to have an audible leak so he's dead set against me tearing into the motor. granted, it's my truck, my money, my time but if he's got a valid point i don't want to hear "I TOLD YOU SO". let me know what you think please.

[just another payment]

How did it go James??????

[panic button]

If it were me, I run the injector cleaner thru it. I doubt that the gasket is leaking...

[just another payment]

The gasket does not leak from the runners where it mates to the heads, it leaks under the manifold at the plate inside the lifter valley , so there will be no audible sign of a leak. It is a common problem on this engine. It is the most probably cause and the first place to start,as that is why you have a vacumm in the crank case which you should not have. just my .02

[PUMP 'HER']

But you only deal with them everyday, what do you know right?

[Rude]

here's where i'm at so far.........
against the recommendation of the guy i work for ("you're f'in crazy, it's not the intake, i don't hear any leaks. a couple of cans of injector cleaner will clear it right up") i pulled the intake off. it's a good thing i did. it's been in bad shape for a long time. one of the intake bolts was so rusted it had already broken and i could see where it had been leaking for a long time. the gaskets were trashed. it should be back on the road before dark tonight. i'll let you guys know if the pinging is gone. hey bob, if you happen to read this, the torque specs the book is calling for seem VERY high. something like 84 in-lbs on the bottom of the intake plenum and the 144 in-lbs on the intake bolts??????????

[Akamatsu]

The torque settings don't seem that high.. Don't confuse in/lbs with ft/lbs....

84in/lbs = 7 ft/lbs
144in/lbs = 12ft/lbs..

If your torque wrench is only in ft/lbs...

A.

[just another payment]

Yes those are correct and they are in inch lbs like adam said when converted to foot lbs that is not very high. Did your gasket set include new intake manifold bolts ? If not go get some from the dealer

[just another payment]

INTAKE MANIFOLD - V-6 and V-8 ENGINES
REMOVAL
Disconnect the negative cable from the battery.
Drain the cooling system (Refer toCooling System for the proper procedures)
Remove the generator.
Remove the air cleaner.
Perform the Fuel System Pressure release procedure (Refer to Fuel System) Disconnect the fuel lines.
Disconnect the accelerator linkage and if so equipped, the speed control and transmission kickdown cables.
Remove the return spring.
Remove the distributor cap and wires.
Disconnect the coil wires.
Disconnect the heat indicator sending unit wire.
Disconnect the heater hoses and bypass hose.
Remove the closed crankcase ventilation and evaporation control systems.
Remove intake manifold bolts.
Lift the intake manifold and throttle body out of the engine compartment as an assembly.
Remove and discard the flange side gaskets and the front and rear cross-over gaskets.
Remove the throttle body bolts and lift the throttle body off the intake manifold Throttle Body Assembly Discard the gasket..
Remove the plenum pan as follows:
Turn the intake manifold upside down. Support the manifold.
Remove the bolts and lift the pan off the manifold. Discard the gasket.
INSTALLATION
Install the plenum pan, if removed, as follows:
Turn the intake manifold upside down. Support the manifold.
Place a new plenum pan gasket onto the seal rail of the intake manifold. Position the pan over the gasket. Align all the gasket and pan holes with the intake manifold.
Hand start all bolts.
Tighten the bolts, in sequence Plenum Pan Bolt Tightening Sequence , as follows:
Step 1 - Tighten bolts to 2.7 N·m (24 in. lbs.) torque.
Step 2 - Tighten bolts to 5.4 N·m (48 in. lbs.) torque.
Step 3 - Tighten bolts to 9.5 N·m (84 in. lbs.) torque.
Step 4 - Check that all bolts are tighten to 9.5 N·m (84 in. lbs.) torque.
Using a new gasket, install the throttle body onto the intake manifold. Tighten the bolts to 23 N·m (200 in. lbs.) torque.
Place the 4 plastic locator dowels into the holes in the block Cross-Over Gaskets and Locator Dowels
Apply Mopar® Silicone Rubber Adhesive Sealant, or equivalent, to the four corner joints. An excessive amount of sealant is not required to ensure a leak proof seal. However, an excessive amount of sealant may reduce the effectiveness of the flange gasket. The sealant should be slightly higher than the cross-over gaskets, approximately 5 mm (0.2 in)
Install the front and rear cross-over gaskets onto the dowels Cross-Over Gaskets and Locator Dowels .
Install the flange gaskets. Ensure that the vertical port alignment tab is resting on the deck face of the block. Also the horizontal alignment tabs must be in position with the mating cylinder head gasket tabs Intake Manifold Flange Gasket Alignment The words MANIFOLD SIDE should be visible on the center of each flange gasket..
Carefully lower intake manifold into position on the cylinder block and cylinder heads. Use the alignment dowels in the cross-over gaskets to position the intake manifold. After intake manifold is in place, inspect to make sure seals are in place.
Install the intake manifold bolts and tighten as follows:
V-8 ENGINE - Intake Manifold Bolt Tightening Sequence - V-8
Step 1 - Tighten bolts 1 through 4, in sequence, to 8 N·m (72 in. lbs.) torque. Tighten in alternating steps 1.4 N·m (12 in. lbs.) torque at a time.
Step 2 - Tighten bolts 5 through 12, in sequence, to 8 N·m (72 in. lbs.) torque.
Step 3 - Check that all bolts are tighten to 8 N·m (72 in. lbs.) torque.
Step 4 - Tighten all bolts, in sequence, to 16 N·m (12 ft. lbs.) torque.
Step 5 - Check that all bolts are tighten to 16 N·m (12 ft. lbs.) torque.
Install closed crankcase ventilation and evaporation control systems.
Connect the coil wires.
Connect the heat indicator sending unit wire.
Connect the heater hoses and bypass hose.
Install distributor cap and wires.
Hook up the return spring.
Connect the accelerator linkage and if so equipped, the speed control and transmission kickdown cables.
Install the fuel lines.
Install the generator and drive belt. Tighten generator mounting bolt to 41 N·m (30 ft. lbs.) torque.
Install the air cleaner.
Fill cooling system (Refer toCooling System for the proper procedure)
Connect the negative cable to the battery.

[just another payment]

Here is the sequence.

[Rude]

job is complete!!!!! so far so good, but i have not pulled the boat with it yet. that will be the test. after fixing a couple of my screw ups (like dropping an injector clip into the block, blowing the 140 amp fuse to the alternator, and breaking the dipstick) the ole dodge is once again road ready. and by the way, don't EVER break the dipstick. nobody seems to carry them and it's $52 from the dealer. i spent $3 on a 6 pack of super glue and put it back together :) i figure i'll be able to glue it about 8 million times before i have to buy a new dipstick. it was definitely a learning experience. my next project is the mustang (which my wife wishes would burn to the ground). THANX FOR YOUR HELP JAP!!!!!! i owe you a few cold ones next time i catch up with you!

[Red Horse]

Way to go James. YOu have come a long way. You are now entering the realm of a Hot boater!!:thumb::thumb::thumb::party:

[sandman0_0]

Good job James, Dont worry everyone has snapped off a dipstick tube and blown a fuse.Just a note, I never heard of the paper trick. I have always sprayed carb cleaner around the manifold with the engine running. ( Not Hot) If there is a vacumm leak the engine will smooth out as you spray the cleaner over it and it draws in the fluid for that moment.

[Rude]

i actually tried that trick as well. that one didn't work in this case.

[Rude]

Way to go James. YOu have come a long way. You are now entering the realm of a Hot boater!!:thumb::thumb::thumb::party:

i can't take all the credit for the repairs, i definitely had some help. but got my hands dirty on this one and learned alot.

so take THAT you non believers :duel::D

and the stuff i learned the hard way off of this repair will NOT happen again :smashfreak:

[just another payment]

The gasket does not leak from the runners where it mates to the heads, it leaks under the manifold at the plate inside the lifter valley, which makes it an internal vacumm leak and can not be found with carb cleaner or propane. In the same way that the paper test will not work on finding an external leak (a leak between the manifold and block or cylinder head)

[Rude]

yup, what he said.

thanx bob, i just didn't know how to explain it.

[Rude]

ok JAP, here's another one for ya.......

the pan for the tranny has a very slight leak. probably next week i'll pull that off to replace the gasket. it looks pretty straight forward. what i would like to know is how do i drain the ENTIRE tranny of fluid to include the torque converter. i'm going to replace all of the fluid with amsoil and want to make sure i get all of the old fluid out. i've looked in the manual that i have and it does not mention how that is done. i also didn't see any torque specs for the pan when i re-install it.

also, the truck is running great now with just a flutter of valve chatter periodically with the boat in tow and pulling a grade. it feels like it has a good bit more power now. my gas pedal is very heavy now. i've looked at the cables several times and they appear to routed correctly. the other thing is the tranny shifts very firm now. almost to the point of being harsh at times going into second gear. is it now working properly since the other issue has been fixed and i have just forgotten how it shifted when it was new? or do i need to re-examine something?

[just another payment]

James ,
Torque spec on the pan is 13 ft lbs,
I would recheck the cable routing and make sure it is correct and make sure it is attached to the throttle body correctly. If it is you are probrably ok. Remember it may feel a little different on the shift. but the pedal should not feel any different. Pay close attention to the connection at the throttle body.
As far as the transmission, the only way to get all the fluid out is to use a power flush machine and exchange the fluid with the syntehtic ( this will remove approx 99% of the old fluid) . You can also remove the transmission pan and loosen the valve body and then let it drain for about 2 hours , this will cause the fluid to be drawn out of the convertor and the cooler ( but it will only remove about 90% of the fluid) if you go this way, make sure you retorque the valve body to 100 in lbs , you only need to loosen the valve body to case bolts (i believe they are the 10mm bolt heads).

[just another payment]

HERE IS AN ADJUSTMENT THAT CAN CUASE YOURE CONCERN:

TRANSMISSION THROTTLE VALVE CABLE ADJUSTMENT
The transmission throttle valve is operated by a cam on the valve body throttle lever. The throttle lever is actuated by a cable connected to the engine throttle body lever A retaining clip at the engine-end of the cable is removed to provide for cable adjustment. The retaining clip is then installed back onto the throttle valve cable to lock in the adjustment.

A correctly adjusted throttle valve cable, will cause the throttle lever on the transmission to move simultaneously with the throttle body lever from the idle position. Proper adjustment allows simultaneous movement without causing the transmission throttle lever to move ahead of, or lag behind the throttle body lever.

THROTTLE VALVE CABLE ADJUSTMENT CHECK
Turn ignition key to OFF position.
Remove air cleaner.
Verify that throttle body lever is at curb idle position. Then verify that transmission throttle lever is also at idle (full forward) position.
Slide cable off attachment stud on throttle body lever
Compare position of cable end to attachment stud on throttle body lever:
Cable end and attachment stud should be aligned (or centered on one another) to within 1 mm (0.039 in.) in either direction.
If cable end and attachment stud are misaligned (off center), cable will have to be adjusted as described in following procedure.
Reconnect cable end to attachment stud. Then with aid of a helper, observe movement of transmission throttle lever and lever on throttle body.
If both levers move simultaneously from idle to half-throttle and back to idle position, adjustment is correct.
If transmission throttle lever moves ahead of, or lags behind throttle body lever, cable adjustment will be necessary. Or, if throttle body lever prevents transmission lever from returning to closed position, cable adjustment will be necessary.
Throttle Valve Cable Attachment - At Engine
THROTTLE VALVE CABLE ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURE
Turn ignition switch to OFF position and shift into Park.
Remove air cleaner.
Disconnect cable end from attachment stud on throttle body. Carefully slide cable off stud. Do not pull or pry cable off.
Verify that transmission throttle lever is in idle (full forward) position. Then be sure lever on throttle body is at curb idle position.
Insert a small screwdriver under edge of retaining clip and remove retaining clip.
Center cable end on attachment stud to within 1 mm (0.039 in.)
Install retaining clip onto cable housing.
Check cable adjustment. Be sure transmission throttle lever and lever on throttle body move simultaneously and as described in cable adjustment checking procedure.


ATTACHED IS THE PICTURE:

[just another payment]

Make sure accelerator cable is routed under the throttle lever.

Also you might run some engine decarbonizer to help clean out the burnt oil from the cylinders.

[Rude]

problem solved! i re-checked the book and the routing of the cables and sure enough i had one passing over another where it shouldn't have been. truck is good as new now. thanx again. :)

[PUMP 'HER']

Son of a bitch! Turns out Bob is worth that $10 an hour!

[Rude]

LOL!! yup, i think so :)

[Rude]

i don't know what it would have cost to have that job done at a dealer but i would guess somewhere around $1000k. when i first looked at it, i'm thinking, how hard can it be? just take a few bolts off, scrape off the old gasket and put the bolts back in.........WRONG!!!!

[just another payment]

Cost at the the dealership is $865.00 plus tax

Glad everything is working good now, anything else I can do just let me know.

[Rude]

anything else I can do just let me know.

i don't think you realize what you've just done to yourself :eek3: just ask diggin' for $$.......i'm like the house guest that just won't leave :smashfreak: